Codecs for Vidding NTSC DVD Source in Final Cut

[frayadjacent]

Hi all,

I vid with Final Cut Pro, and most of my vidding thus far has been with NTSC DVDs, which I rip to my computer and then use MPEG Streamclip to convert clips to mov.  I use the Apple DV/DVCPRO NTSC codec for my clips, but I'm starting to wonder if there's something else that would work better.  In particular, I've had some issues with non-square pixels in my final export, especially when the source's frame aspect ratio is 16:9 (it doesn't seem to happen in 4:3).  My understanding is that the DV codec doesn't use square pixels, and I'm wondering if there's a good, high quality editing codec that works well for NTSC DVDs that does use square pixels, so I can just nip the issue in the bud.

Thanks!
Fray

Comments

[ghost_lingering]

Which version of FCP do you use? I used to have this problem when I used an older version of FCP (would have to go back to check, but I think it was 4?) where you had to adjust the sequence settings manually to match the clip settings. When I upgraded to FCP 7, which is able to automatically match the sequence settings to the clip settings, the problem completely went away. So my advice changes based on what version of FCP you are using. (And if you have access to After Effects I have some additional thoughts as well.)

[frayadjacent]

I am using FCP 7, so I think my problem must not be mismatched sequence/clip settings. I don't have After Effects, sadly. Thanks -- any other thoughts you have are very much appreciated.

[ghost_lingering]

Huh, odd! When I switched to FCP 7 my exports stopped doing what you've described.

For what it's worth I use ProRes 422 and when I export from FCP I export using the same sequence settings. From that master file I then use Quicktime 7 to export a smaller H264 file for download. I don't muck about with trying to export a downloadable version straight from FCP.

The only thing I was going to say about After Effects is that when I used to run into that problem when I used my old version of FCP After Effects was useful as a quick fix that didn't involve going back and reclipping with a different codec or spending hours figuring out what settings where slightly off.

Good luck!

[ghost_lingering]

Oh, I should also say that when I use mpeg streamclip to convert to ProRes I always check the "unscaled" option under frame size.

[frayadjacent]

Great, thanks so much for your help -- that's two votes for ProRes 422! I'll definitely give it a try; sounds like it should work well.

[thingswithwings]

I don't know that MPEG Streamclip has a codec that'll give you a square pixel - I always just convert my vid from rectangular to square pixels on final export from FCP. (I use the h.264 codec or sometimes the apple component video codec to clip in MPEG Streamclip, for the record).

But, say I've got 720x480 clips that I've made from 720x480 footage . . . I vid in FCP with 720x480 sequence settings (anamorphic 16:9) and then when I go to export from FCP I just export to 720x400 and it comes out fine. You do have to convert from rectangular to square pixels at SOME point, but I just do it on the final export and then don't have to worry about it.

[frayadjacent]

Thanks for the response. I actually found that when I used anamorphic settings, the video looked very stretched out, as though I was using those settings on a 4:3 clip (Sanguinity also seems to have had this or a similar problem downthread), though I switched the aspect ratio to 16:9 in the "options" button in Streamclip. So even when using 16:9 I end up using 4:3 settings in FCP, and I think that might be where the non-square pixels somehow become an issue? I talk about this a bit more in my response to Sanquinity.

[sanguinity]

I've had problems using DV/DVCPRO NTSC on 16:9 source. (Different details than yours -- on import into my editing program the clips were being interpreted as 4:3 instead of 16:9 -- but as I understood it, that was because of the square-vs-rectangular pixel thing.) Using Apple Intermediate Codec for my clips cleared that up for me.

[frayadjacent]

Hum, I wonder if this is actually the same problem as mine. FCP seems to be interpreting my 16:9 clips as 4:3, even though I was marking them as 16:9 when clipping in Streamclip. So if I used any anamorphic settings in FCP, the result was very visibly stretched. On the other hand, if I used 4:3 settings, the result wasn't too obviously stretched, but there were black bars on all sides of the final vid and there seemed to be pixel aspect ratio issues.

Incidentally, I have found a workaround: I export my final vid using DV NTSC in final cut, which, because FCP thinks the vid is 4:3, ends up having black bars all around. I then convert the final export in Streamclip to h264 mov and crop the bars. However, I'm not totally satisfied with this because the final result has a frame size of 640x360, and damn if I don't want at least 720x405.

Anyway, what is your experience with the quality/stability of Apple Intermediate Codec? Any stray frame issues or crashing?

Thanks so much!

[sanguinity]

Yeah, marking DV/DVCPRO as 16:9 in Streamclip worked fine when I was reviewing the clips in QuickTime Player -- everything looked fine. But iMovie insisted on importing them as 4:3 and then pillarboxing them. I never pushed farther than that with it, because there was image distortion during that import, and I just couldn't see it turning out satisfyingly in the end.

I played around with Streamclip settings a fair bit, and settled on exporting with AIC at 854x480, which seemed to have comparable image-quality to the original. I haven't had any stray quality problems that I've been able to notice. (Short track record, though.)

Nothing has ever been fully stable for me, but some things are more stable and other things are markedly less stable. AIC, so far, has been in the "more stable" category. As near as I've been able to figure, poking around the web, AIC was designed to be used during the intermediate stages of making a video, i.e., during editing.

[frayadjacent]

Thanks for the info -- I'll definitely try that out. It looks like ProRes 422 is another option as well.

[sanguinity]

Keeping that in mind for whenever I finally upgrade, thanks. :-)

[laurashapiro]

I used DVCPRO50 quite happily for many years. It's utterly dependable, but the files aren't as shiny as they could be.

For the past couple of years I've been using Apple ProRes. The only downside so far is that LlamaEnc doesn't like it, so when encoding a vid for a con, I need to export in a different codec (usually H.264).

[frayadjacent]

Thanks! If you don't mind more questions: which ProRes codec do you use? I have five options: ProRes 4444, ProRes 422 (HQ) (I assume this one is for higher res source than DVD NTSC rips), ProRes 422, and two other variants on 422 (Proxy and LT).

Also, it sounds like when you're not vidding for a con, you also use ProRes in your final export?

Thanks again!

[laurashapiro]

I think I only have ProRes 422 HQ.

For online release, my final export is ProRes or H.264 for uploading to YouTube and Blip.tv, and DivX for downloads. DivX has been giving me some trouble lately, so I am going to try .mp4 for download with my next vid.

[frayadjacent]

Great -- thanks so much for your help!

[laurashapiro]

Glad it was useful!

[rhivolution]

If you find one that works effectively, please let me know! I'm an FCP (okay, okay, FCE, it's what I could afford) and MPEG Streamclip user as well, though I rip to DV format where possible, when it's not counterintuitive due to amount of source.

[frayadjacent]

As far as I can tell, FCP and FCE are pretty similar when it comes to this stuff, though I'm no expert. Anyway, there are lots of good suggestions here and I'm going to try them all -- I'll definitely report back!

ETA: Also, on my first FC vid I ripped to DV as well, because that's what I'd done in iMovie. But I found there were some stability issues -- some of the clips' time stamps were off, especially when I applied filters, and the audio and video were out of sync. Have you had any issues like that?

[rhivolution]

Aye, from my experience with both, FCE's really just stripped down FCP--less bells and whistles and filters, and none of the extra studio software. Which sucks, because Compressor would have gotten me out of a lot of trouble on occasion, but hey.

ETA: wrt timestamps--I've always thought that troubles I've had with syncing with DV have been either due to the conversion process being a strain on my processor, or the fact that DV's so damn bulky a format that doing anything too funky with it in FCP/FCE (which already takes up a chunk of memory) means stability goes to hell. I've sort of always ascribed that to the fact that I'm on a fairly old MacBook (2008 2.4 Ghz Intel dual) though, as DV's got to be stable in FCP overall or it wouldn't be used professionally for footage filmed/taped in DV format, right? Right?

(oh god are they lying to me walter murch noooo)

I could just be completely off base, though.

[frayadjacent]

Oh, I think I was misunderstanding you. For some reason, when you said "ripped to DV format", I thought you meant that you clipped your source as .DV files, rather than .MOV with the DV codec. But that's probably not what you meant! Yes, DV codec has been totally stable and reliable for me in FC. Sorry about that!